Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

resolve technical issues related to use of Neat Video
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joshua2577
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2022 6:45 pm

Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by joshua2577 »

Hi all,

Don't know if you've come across this but I'm using Neat Video on ProRes 422 footage on an M1 Studio Ultra and it's creating random freeze frames on almost every shot after I render it on the timeline in Final Cut 10.6.3. I did just update, but I was experiencing it on 10.6.2 also. I've removed all the other filters and effects and it's the only plugin I have left on at this point and it's still creating it often for 2 to 3 freeze frames at a time. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue and if there might be some settings in the Neat video interface to try.

Thank you,

Josh Meyers
NVTeam
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Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by NVTeam »

We haven't seem such a problem yet, as far as I know. Please prepare a small test project allowing to reproduce this problem. Then please export the test project to XML and upload together with the source clip to https://wetransfer.com/ for us (support at neatvideo.com). We will run it on our machines and see if it is reproducible. Once we can reproduce it, we can identify the cause and possibly find a solution.

Thank you,
Vlad
pau)_
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:55 am

Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by pau)_ »

joshua2577 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:37 pm Hi all,

Don't know if you've come across this but I'm using Neat Video on ProRes 422 footage on an M1 Studio Ultra and it's creating random freeze frames on almost every shot after I render it on the timeline in Final Cut 10.6.3. I did just update, but I was experiencing it on 10.6.2 also. I've removed all the other filters and effects and it's the only plugin I have left on at this point and it's still creating it often for 2 to 3 freeze frames at a time. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue and if there might be some settings in the Neat video interface to try.

Thank you,

Josh Meyers
HI Joshua,

I am having the same problem. Render/export ProRes 422 on a M1 Studio (Mac OS X 12.4, FCP X 10.6.3, NeatVideo5 (SR) v5.5.2 for FCPX) I've tried deleting all the render files and re-rendering with only NeatVideo applied as a plugin and the same issue occurs. Kinda dead in the water at this point. Have you had any success with fixes or work arounds?
Thanks,
Paul
NVTeam
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Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by NVTeam »

We have reproduced something that may be the same thing that you observe -- a stutter in the render output of FCPX when Neat Video is also applied and this seems to be caused by one of the recent updates of FCP or related Apple software. The problem is not reproducible in an older version (10.6.1) but is reproducible in 10.6.2 and 10.6.3. We are working with Apple to investigate this in more detail and find a solution.

Vlad
pau)_
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:55 am

Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by pau)_ »

Thank you very much Vlad!
joema
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Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by joema »

I am investigating this issue for my video team. Is there any updated info? Here is what I've observed so far, with most testing done on a Mac Studio M1 Ultra, MacOS 12.4, FCP 10.6.3 and Neat Video 5.5.2 (SR):

- It is not restricted to Neat Video, but can happen on retimed clips, especially if involving temporal effects or transitions, however it's very elusive.
- There is a spectrum of manifestations from very mild to severe.
- In mild cases it can be very difficult and tedious to identify since it seems to require retimed clips and that in turn produces an uneven frame cadence which makes a single anomalous dropped or duplicated frame hard to spot.
- It seems more common if exporting to H264 but it can happen with an all-ProRes workflow
- It involves more than incorrectly-ordered frames. I've sometimes observed torn frames -- see attachment.
- It's not related to hard drive or a specific M1 Ultra machine -- it's been observed on multiple machines.
- It's not specific to M1 Ultra; I've seen it on M1 Max.
- I have not seen it when using temporal noise reduction in Resolve Studio 17.4.6 on M1 Ultra, but I've done less testing on that.
- If it is isolated to M1 Ultra and M1 Max (not regular M1), those are the only CPUs with multiple hardware encode/decode accelerators. It is conceivable in that case the problem could involve a thread safety issue across the multiple parallel accelerators, however that is speculation. It's interesting that FCP 10.6.2 was the version which allegedly better harnessed those accelerators. From studying the Video ToolBox framework and Grand Central Dispatch, it's unclear to me how a programmer would manage multiple threads making async calls to VTCompressionSession.
- In the Video ToolBox framework, hardware acceleration is used by default. The programmer can disable acceleration in the VTCompressionSession call by setting EnableHardwareAcceleratedVideoDecoder to False. However this is not exposed in FCP. If there was a trace flag or debugging menu for that it would help in cases like this.
Attachments
M1UltraFCP10_6_3_TornFrameRetimePlusCubeTrans.jpg
M1UltraFCP10_6_3_TornFrameRetimePlusCubeTrans.jpg (119.61 KiB) Viewed 53 times
NVTeam
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Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by NVTeam »

We have received reports of the temporal stutter happening on M1 machines and also on one Intel Xeon machine. So it is not limited to M1 architecture. We have been able to directly reproduce this on a M1 Max machine but not on other types of M1 or Intel machines in our labs.

We have been able to reproduce the issue even without using Neat Video, in a test project with only built-in effects of FCPX.

We have added this as a known issue to the official list of known issues and are continuing working with Apple to help them diagnose and fix the problem.

We have not seen the problem shown in your screenshot. It may be related or not related to the problem of stutter.

Thank you,
Vlad
josch
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by josch »

To add my observations:
Because, I now own a Mac Studio, I'm going over some semi finished projects with older versions of NeatVideo, cleaning things up with the recent NV version.
While I see the stutter with ProRes originals, I shot with an original BMPCC, footage (AVC1) I shot with an Olympus E-M10 Mk I has no stutter at all.
My guess would be that formats, the M1 Max can handle with its Media Engine, will be prone to the stutter, while other formats are perfect.
joema
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Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: Neat video creating Freeze frames on Render in FCP 10.6.3

Post by joema »

M1 Ultra has two H264/HEVC decode engines, four H264/HEVC encode engines and four ProRes encode/decode engines. M1 Max has half of those.

On current versions of MacOS, hardware acceleration is enabled by default for apps. It can be disabled programmatically by apps using the Video Toolbox framework when calling VTDecompressionSession by setting the EnableHardwareAcceleratedVideoDecoder option to false. I wish FCP had a trace flag or debugging option for this.

Be advised there is a superficially similar but separate problem with the FCP built-in video noise reduction (NR) effect. This apparently has existed since at least 10.5.2 and exists today on 10.6.3 on Intel and Apple Silicon. In this case a retimed or rate conformed clip containing FCP NR may appear to periodically drop and duplicate frames. An easy way to reproduce this is by putting a 29.97 fps clip in a 59.94 timeline, selecting Modify>Retime>Automatic Speed which retimes the clip to 200%, making playback smooth. However if FCP built-in video NR is added, the retime operation is disregarded and every other frame is duplicated. Many variations of this exist for various rate conforming paths. I will likely file a bug with Apple on this today, plus will discuss with Pro Apps escalation support.

Due to the above FCP bug IMO no user should use FCP built-in NR. If any users are concerned about the current issues with Neat Video on FCP, using the built-in NR is not the answer.

When I get the bug filed I'll post the details here.
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