Removing Banding on YouTube with NeatVideo

questions about practical use of Neat Video, examples of use
Redbud
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Removing Banding on YouTube with NeatVideo

Post by Redbud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:14 pm

Hi there,

Apologies for the double post (also appears in general section). I wasn't sure what the ideal location would be for this query.

Shot a music video on Canon 5D MkII. It was low light. The settings were Monochrome, ISO 2000, 135 mm, F2.0, 1/30 sec.

While I can remove most of the grain using presets such as Remove Grain, Ramp Scatter etc in After Effects, I do lose some detail. The output file looks pretty good overall before I upload to YT but then the banding and some pixelation always comes back after upload. I am reluctant to increase the bitrate beyond 16 as I don't want folks to have stuttering issues during playback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1lgwXqezKY

I am considering purchasing Neat Video but am wondering 2 things:
1) Is Neat Video likely to minimize the banding that appears in the video?
2) If you are working with a one shot video such as this, do you need to create multiple profiles from different sections of the video? Or, should I just pick one noisy spot for the whole 3-minute video, create one profile and go from there?

Many thanks in advance for your help and feedback.

Jeanette

NVTeam
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Post by NVTeam » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:07 pm

The problem of banding is usually caused by compression applied by the output codec OR by Youtube (who re-compresses the uploaded clips). The problem and a possible workaround is described in this page.

When you use Neat Video, you can of course reduce the noise but if you then upload the video to Youtube then it may get such a banding from Youtube's recompression, so it may be useful to leave some noise in the video or add some artificial noise to the cleaned video, just to make Youtube's encoder work a bit harder to avoid creating that banding.

Regarding your second question, it depends on whether the noise is very different in different sections of the clip. If it almost the same (visually you do not see much difference) then you can just instruct Neat Video to "Adapt to Changing Noise" (there is such an option in the Temporal section of Neat Video 4 filter settings). If the noise changes drastically then it may be better to split the clip into scenes and apply different instances of the filter (with different profiles/filter settings). If you are not sure, I recommend to try the above option first and if it not sufficient then to split the clip.

Hope this helps,
Vlad
Last edited by NVTeam on Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image Image Neat Video team
noise reduction for video and photos

Redbud
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Thank You!

Post by Redbud » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Hi Vlad,

Thank you very much for this feedback. I will check out your recommended approach.

Jeanette

mathewlisett
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Post by mathewlisett » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:46 pm

Ok what you need to do is put your clip through virtualdub first with plugins msu color denoiser and deblocker.

you only need one instance of each, how ever you will need to find the right setting for the color.

after this what you will likely find is that when you go for the neatvideo denoiser, dont have the "front" ticked (cant remember what its called think its temporal) this will allow the area to be flattened a bit more.

you will also likely need to render in 10bit which ive always found to be ideal when dealing with banding

Redbud
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:32 am

Thanks Matthew for the additional suggestion. I will try this out.

I just rendered twice, once for each of the following variants:
1) Adapt to changing noise
2) Leave noise to reduce banding.

The video looks perfect while rendering but as soon as it is done I can see the banding right there in Premiere. I changed the NeatVideo preferences to 16-bit from 32 as ultimately I will be exporting at 16 for YouTube.

I will give your suggestions a whirl, Matthew.

Thanks everyone!

Jeanette

mathewlisett
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Post by mathewlisett » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:57 am

render in 10bit from virtualdub ie your output file needs to be 10bit and just save as avi without any compression .

leaving noise to reduce banding in most cases especially if you have blockiness issues which sounds like you do wont help.


for me when i do my renders dealign with blockiness and banding, i render my projects weither its virtual dub, sony or adobe in uncompressed 10bit avi.

Redbud
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:31 pm

Hi there,

Is VirtualDub is available for Mac?

I tried exporting from Premiere as uncompressed Apple ProRes but YouTube doesn't seem to like it - quite a bit of stuttering.

It's just bizarre how everything looks great in the viewer when I apply NeatVideo and during the render in Premiere but as soon as it has finished and I move around in the timeline, the banding is appearing again.

Vlad - Any suggestions for Go To settings to make the best of NeatVideo within Premiere?

Jeanette

NVTeam
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Post by NVTeam » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:44 pm

As I wrote earlier, it may be useful to leave some more noise in the video or add some artificial noise to the cleaned video, just to make Youtube's encoder work a bit harder to avoid creating that banding.

You can leave some noise in the video by decreasing the noise reduction amount or by using the dedicated control available in the General tab (in Advanced mode): Mix with Original. If you set it to say 50% then the filtered video will be mixed with original noise one at 50/50 ratio, so at least 50% of that original noise will stay in the image. That may be sufficient to prevent Youtube from creating that banding.

Then you may want to play with that ratio to find the setting that provides (1) enough noise reduction yet (2) still allows to avoid banding created by Youtube codecs. So some experimentation is required there.

Vlad
Image Image Neat Video team
noise reduction for video and photos

Redbud
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:09 pm

Great! Thanks very much Vlad I will try out your suggestions.

Jeanette

Redbud
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:54 pm

Hi Vlad,

One more question - how do I go about reducing the noise from a particular color channel? The Blue channel appears to the be noisiest.

Thanks

Jeanette[/img]

NVTeam
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Post by NVTeam » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:12 pm

Why do you want reduce only the noisiest one? If that channel is cleaned, then another channel becomes noisiest.

I recommend to apply noise reduction to all channels (which is done by Neat Video automatically).

Vlad
Image Image Neat Video team
noise reduction for video and photos

Redbud
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:14 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJezsSp ... e=youtu.be

Hi Vlad,

I applied the 50% mix and also the adapt to changing noise filter. Things are definitely looking better.

My biggest challenge is the first minute of the video which was shot in the window reflection. Would you suggest isolating this and applying higher intensity settings for this to try and deal with the pixelation and banding?

Thanks for all your help!

Jeanette

NVTeam
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Post by NVTeam » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:45 am

What filter settings do you use currently? Please describe them separately for Temporal and Spatial sections.

Thank you,
Vlad
Image Image Neat Video team
noise reduction for video and photos

Redbud
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Redbud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:14 pm

https://youtu.be/DGmoeuJkyq8

Hi Vlad.

I have re-rendered and uploaded to be sure that the description of the settings I have used is accurate.

Each time I open Neat Video I cannot see the settings I previously used and I think this is because I hadn't saved them as a profile. I have now done this, however. And the above render was saved using the following temporal and spatial filters:


General
50% Mix

Temporal
Adapt to changing noise
Radius 2
Threshold and Amount 100%

Spatial
Artifact Removal is selected
Noise Reduction Amount - Luminance 40%

Jeanette

NVTeam
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:12 pm
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Post by NVTeam » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:30 pm

I recommend to try the following:
- build a new noise profile by selecting as large as possible area containing those compression blocks; choose the area with the most visible blocks;
- try to vary the temporal filter radius (increase and decrease it) and check preview in Neat Video window to see if the result becomes better;
- once that is optimized so you like the results, try to play with the Mix settings to find the value that is low enough to avoid banding from Youtube recompression and high enough to sufficiently reduce noise.

Hope this helps,
Vlad
Image Image Neat Video team
noise reduction for video and photos

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