Multiple noise sample regions

[peteonmsn]

It would be really great to be able to select multiple regions for noise sampling rather than just one.

Sometimes I use Neat Image to remove the ink patterns from scans of magazine or colour laser output. Often for block graphics, the 'reds' for example will have a different noise pattern to the 'blues'. It would be nice to be able to select several different regions within the scan, and have ALL of them used to build the noise profile.

Thanks

Pete

[NITeam]

Pete,

There is a possibility to do manual profiling in Neat Image. You can use Rough and Fine-Tuning Analyzer to analyze several manually selected image areas. You can find more details on manual profiling in the user guide.

Normally, Neat Image does all that profiling automatically. It automatically finds several areas for analysis and automaticaly analyzes them.

Thank you for your suggestion.
Vlad

[un4givn72]

I would have to agree that this feature (selecting multiple regions) would be an idea to reconsider!

I had an image last night that took me a while to try and get the noise out of. I fooled around with it for about 30 min before I was able to get the results that I wanted. Where as another noise removal tool almost got it right on the first try! I think partially because it sampled 3 different regions at the same time.

Do not get me wrong, I REALLY LIKE NeatImage but it probably would benefit from this suggestion. The noise removal too that I refer to is the one that comes with Paint Shop Pro 9. It samples 3 different areas simultaneously. It samples an shadow, midtone, and highlight at the same time and tries to make an noise profile from this.

It will allow you also to add more samples if you think that it would be necessary while keeping the original samples where they are. It would allow you to dynamically move and resize the sample.

If this idea makes some nervous or some do not like this idea, maybe make it an option that can be selected by the user???

Anyway this is my .02 cents.

[NITeam]

I had an image last night that took me a while to try and get the noise out of. I fooled around with it for about 30 min before I was able to get the results that I wanted. Where as another noise removal tool almost got it right on the first try! I think partially because it sampled 3 different regions at the same time.

Neat Image also takes samples from more than one region.

Let me explain. Neat Image noise analysis consists of two stages:

1) rough analysis stage; in this stage, only one image area is used to build an initial, rough profile;

2) fine-tuning analysis stage; in this stage, many areas are used to make the initial analysis more accurate;

Now, you can do the above two stages in different ways.

- you can let Neat Image do everything automatically - just click Auto Profile button; it will try to automatically find an appropriate area for (1) and then also automatically find many areas for (2). The area (1) will be shown on the screen, the multiple areas (2) will be not.

- you can help Neat Image by manually selecting the area (1) - you can select it and click Auto Profile; in this case Neat Image will use your area for rough analysis and will then automatically find many other areas (2) for fine-tuning analysis.

- you can find and select all those areas manually; you have to use the Advanced mode, Rough Analyzer and Fine-Tuning Analyzer tools; you have to select the first area manually and use Rough Analyzer, then, repeatedly, select another area and use Fine-Tuning Analyzer. Please check the user guide for more details on the manual profiling, that may make things easier.

So, as you see, with Neat Image you can do what you have described, you can do that right now.

Thank you for your suggestion. Please let me know if I missed anything.

Thank you,
Vlad

[un4givn72]

Neat Image also takes samples from more than one region.

Let me explain. Neat Image noise analysis consists of two stages:

1) rough analysis stage; in this stage, only one image area is used to build an initial, rough profile;

2) fine-tuning analysis stage; in this stage, many areas are used to make the initial analysis more accurate;

Now, you can do the above two stages in different ways.

- you can let Neat Image do everything automatically - just click Auto Profile button; it will try to automatically find an appropriate area for (1) and then also automatically find many areas for (2). The area (1) will be shown on the screen, the multiple areas (2) will be not.

- you can help Neat Image by manually selecting the area (1) - you can select it and click Auto Profile; in this case Neat Image will use your area for rough analysis and will then automatically find many other areas (2) for fine-tuning analysis.

- you can find and select all those areas manually; you have to use the Advanced mode, Rough Analyzer and Fine-Tuning Analyzer tools; you have to select the first area manually and use Rough Analyzer, then, repeatedly, select another area and use Fine-Tuning Analyzer. Please check the user guide for more details on the manual profiling, that may make things easier.

So, as you see, with Neat Image you can do what you have described, you can do that right now.

Thank you for your suggestion. Please let me know if I missed anything.

Thank you,
Vlad

Well something did not work as expected on my image last night. Most of the time, I agree that NeatImage will work as you state but last night it wanted to give me some heartburn.

Here is what I mean, I was cleaning up an image that I took of my wife at an historical site. The program when asked to Auto Profile, it sampled the blue sky. Well when I went to preview what the program was going to do, It wonderfully removed the noise out of the sky but left my wife's skin and other features full of noise! This is why I stated what I did. This may help you dimintionalize the issue.

Whereas in the Noise reduction filter in PSP, showed me the sections being analyzed and allowing me to add another selection without removing the others, allowed the program to see more noise and thus did a better job on the first shot in this instance.

Please do not take this as an put down of your wonderful program. I am just trying to get you to see what I was seeing/doing last night with the different programs.

If NeatImage does sample multiple selections, could you please give us the option to see where the program is looking and give us the ability also to adjust them without making new selections?

Unfortunately, I have looked at the users manual and I am still somewhat lost on the subject of manual profiling. I will eventually get it. I understand the procedure but the part about adjusting the equalizer to get an better profile still has me snowed. With the other mentioned filter, the equalizer works to protect an area of an image from correction. I am able to select that portion of the image that I want to exclude and adjust the sliders accordingly.

I guess that I am still in the learning curve.

I figure that if NeatImage could do what I stated before, then it should reduce the amount that one needs to mess with other settings.

But I do understand what you are stating in your response. I was just hoping that you would see what I see as an general user that is all.

Have an good one!

[NITeam]

If NeatImage does sample multiple selections, could you please give us the option to see where the program is looking and give us the ability also to adjust them without making new selections?

The thing is, it uses a different method to search for those multiple fine-tuning areas and even they were shown it would be difficult to make them moveable. I mean that there are two choices right now: either NI selects all those areas automatically (and you don't see them) or you select them all manually (and then you of course see them, one by one).

However, there is one more option: you can first do auto fine-tuning and then simply additionally fine-tune the results manually.

Unfortunately, I have looked at the users manual and I am still somewhat lost on the subject of manual profiling. I will eventually get it. I understand the procedure but the part about adjusting the equalizer to get an better profile still has me snowed. With the other mentioned filter, the equalizer works to protect an area of an image from correction.

Is that part from tips-and-tricks? - You don't need that part right now. You only need pages 21-25 (I am referring to the PDF version of the user guide). Just learn how to select and analyze image areas using the Fine-Tuning Analyzer and see how this affects the equalizer. Do not try to manually adjust the equalizer at this point.

The problem as you describe it is most likely the following. Neat Image automatically found a flat featureless area in the sky and used it for rough analysis. Then it tried to find more areas for fine-tuning and it looks like it could not find any flat featureless area that would be in the same brightness range as the skin. So, the brightness range of the skin remained unmeasured and the equalizer still had the default values in this range. In this situation, I would simply enable Advanced mode and additionally (after using Auto Profile) fine-tuned the profile using an area selected exactly in the trouble zone, that is somewhere in the skin. Neat Image could not take this area automatically (probably considered it not really featureless) but if you do manually analyze this area using the Fine-Tuning Analyzer then Neat Image will take this measurement because you know better.

But I do understand what you are stating in your response. I was just hoping that you would see what I see as an general user that is all.

Yes, I understand your view as well and that's why we do not stop working to make profiling better. At them moment, you have to help the automatics with your guiding hand. Perhaps one of the next versions of Neat Image will be able to cope with similar situations faster and easier.

Thank you,
Vlad

[un4givn72]

The problem as you describe it is most likely the following. Neat Image automatically found a flat featureless area in the sky and used it for rough analysis. Then it tried to find more areas for fine-tuning and it looks like it could not find any flat featureless area that would be in the same brightness range as the skin. So, the brightness range of the skin remained unmeasured and the equalizer still had the default values in this range. In this situation, I would simply enable Advanced mode and additionally (after using Auto Profile) fine-tuned the profile using an area selected exactly in the trouble zone, that is somewhere in the skin. Neat Image could not take this area automatically (probably considered it not really featureless) but if you do manually analyze this area using the Fine-Tuning Analyzer then Neat Image will take this measurement because you know better.

Not to be arguementative, but no, the above did not work at all! I had to keep on trying to resample the image til I finally found one that will work! See if I knew where the program was looking and had the ability to move the sampling regions, then this would have been alot faster.

One of the reasons is that NeatImage requires an big area for noise analysis. Where as the other program does not seem to require as big of an sampling area.

I do thank you for the suggestions but I still feel that the multiple selections would help.

I will go and re-read the manual again. Boy I must be stupid for not getting this to work like you stated in the above.

[NITeam]

I think if I saw the image you work with I could make the exact diagnosis and find the best solution (I am still confident in my earlier advice). And if you saw what I do then you would be able to fix that and similar images in a matter of seconds.

Please send the image to the support e-mail and I will check where the automatics gets stuck and how to help it.

Vlad

[un4givn72]

Ok I will send you the original picture. Here is what I did with it so you can try what I tried.

Load the picture in NeatImage. Let Neat Image Auto Profile the image. Have Neat Image preview what it will do to the picture. When done like this, the noise that is present in my wifes face and clothes are not removed with Neat Image.

Yes, I would like some feedback on this if you would please.

Thanks.

[NITeam]

I have just replied to your e-mail with some analysis and suggestions. I hope that will help.

Vlad