Photoshop CS4 (WIN VERSION)

[kaesler]

I installed Photoshop CS4 64-bit onto my Vista x64 PC today. I then reinstalled my copy of NeatImage 5.9 Pro+. The Neat Image filter is not present in the Filters menu.

If I explicitly invoke the 32-bit version of Photoshop CS4 from beneath c:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe the Neat Image filter does appear.

Will there be a fix for this ?

[NITeam]

The current 32-bit version of Neat Image for Windows will only work in the 32-bit version of Photoshop. It will not work in the 64-bit version of Photoshop. This is a limitation of the Windows platform as a whole. This applies to all third-party plug-ins for Photoshop, they either have to be 64-bit or they will not work in the 64-bit version.

To make Neat Image work in the 64-bit Photoshop, we will have to develop a new 64-bit version of Neat Image, which will take some more time. Until it is ready, for most practical solution is to keep using the 32-bit Photoshop.

Vlad

[Noise_remover]

To make Neat Image work in the 64-bit Photoshop, we will have to develop a new 64-bit version of Neat Image, which will take some more time. Until it is ready, for most practical solution is to keep using the 32-bit Photoshop.

Ah. I have just bought CS4 for the 64bit functionality and fully use my 8Gb of RAM. I love the speed increase and snappyness of CS4. I have not installed the 32bit version and have no plans to do so. I do hope the 64bit version will be a priority. After all, 64bit is very much mainstream now. Cheers.

[kaesler]

I don't know how Neat Image is built but with any luck merely recompiling and relinking the code for 64 bit run time may suffice.....he said hopefully.

[NITeam]

Actually it takes much more than that, so it is going take some time. Remember, 64-bit Photoshop for Mac also will take some time, perhaps even more than NI.

Anyway, I would be interested to learn more about practical benefits that Neat Image users currently see in using the 64-bit Photoshop over the 32-bit one. Could you name some specific practical points please?

Thank you,
Vlad

[kimletkeman]

Actually it takes much more than that, so it is going take some time. Remember, 64-bit Photoshop for Mac also will take some time, perhaps even more than NI.

Vista 64 has been coming down the pipe like a freight train for a very long time. Are you saying that Adobe did not offer the premiere noise reduction plugin an opportunity to get a beta of CS4 64 bit for porting purposes?

I must say that this is the first time that I've been seriously disappointed with Neat Image. I have used it for years on almost every image I process, even low ISO images. I have developed my technique to shave off just enough noise without touching fine detail ...

Anyway, I would be interested to learn more about practical benefits that Neat Image users currently see in using the 64-bit Photoshop over the 32-bit one. Could you name some specific practical points please?

I have 8GB RAM. 64bit Photoshop will use it all instead of stopping at 3GB. That means faster everything. 64bit also moves more data at one time, resulting in significant speed improvements all over the place because of the increased bandwidth. I must say that these improvements were obvious the minute I started using it.

And the most important point ... 64bit is the future. Many (most?) advanced technical people are switching to it, and serious users of a tool like Neat Image are exactly the sort of people that move with the tide.

Thank you,
Vlad

There is no way that I will switch back to 32bit CS4 to accommodate Neat Image. I would rather switch my NR plugin than switch back to 32bit mode ... I have waited for years to finally shake off the 32bit version ...

I sense from your response that you did not see this coming ... and that you are not convinced even now. I really hope I'm wrong.

[NITeam]

As a matter of fact, Adobe did not offer us the 64-bit beta of PS for quite a while. They did that very late, after repeated unanswered requests. Hence the delay on our side.

On the other hand, this doesn't mean we were not anticipating or not preparing or anything like that. I guess you misinterpreted my question. The question meant only what it said: I wanted to learn about practical and objective benefits that users observed in 64-bit vs 32-bit version of Photoshop. Perhaps you would agree that not every task would appreciably benefit from just switching to the 64-bit version. There must be something that stresses the limits of the system and where the 64-bit version would hopefully cope better. So, I would love to hear about practical benefits in specific use-case scenarios.

Also, theoretical considerations may not necessarily match the practical results. For example, you refer to increased bandwidth, increased because of using 64 bits. That is incorrect, the bandwidth of the same hardware running 32-bit vs 64-bit Windows, PS, NI, etc., will be the same. That means no practical improvements because of "increased bandwidth". There can be something else that would provide the improvements, so I would love to hear about some practical results where the difference is significant. Then it would be interesting to identify the cause of the difference.

Thank you,
Vlad

[kimletkeman]

As a matter of fact, Adobe did not offer us the 64-bit beta of PS for quite a while. They did that very late, after repeated unanswered requests. Hence the delay on our side.

Fair enough.

Perhaps you would agree that not every task would appreciably benefit from just switching to the 64-bit version. There must be something that stresses the limits of the system and where the 64-bit version would hopefully cope better. So, I would love to hear about practical benefits in specific use-case scenarios.

Memory limitations, as I mentioned. CS4 can use more than 3GB RAM. That means that people who like to stitch huge images will get far better performance now. And plugins like Neat Image, that operate on these large images, would also benefit from using 64bit registers and larger scratch pads, etc.

Also, theoretical considerations may not necessarily match the practical results. For example, you refer to increased bandwidth, increased because of using 64 bits. That is incorrect, the bandwidth of the same hardware running 32-bit vs 64-bit Windows, PS, NI, etc., will be the same. That means no practical improvements because of "increased bandwidth".

I was talking about the effective bandwidth of the algorithm, which presumably depends on whether it can access and operate on 64bit registers etc. I would assume that Neat Image would see a benefit from operating on the double word as fast as it operates on the word today.

EDIT:

This post: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/04/ph ... lr_64.html

... mentions that the removal of memory limitations makes the biggest difference, and that running photoshop in 64bit mode only improves performance by 8-12% on its own. However, I would think that would be a very nice freebee with a memory and CPU bound plugin.

[NITeam]

Yes, I also read that posting in Adobe blog and very well understand the benefits of using more memory when working with really large images. The question is how often do we need to work with such images. So I was asking if this is a significant issue for NI users and how often they bump into the memory limitations of the 32-bit Windows and 32-bit Photoshop and whether they have tried 64-bit PS and how much better it performs in the same tasks. I was also wondering if NI users have observed any improvements in their regular practice after switching to the 64-bit PS. In practice, not just in theory. Whether it is 8-12%, or 50%, or more, or perhaps no change, and in which use cases.

Regarding 64-bit vs 32-bit registers, that doesn't apply to NI very much (but of course does apply to PS itself), because we do a lot of computations in 128-bit registers anyway, whether it is 32-bit or 64-bit CPU. What would really help NI to work faster is faster CPU computations and broader memory bandwidth. Since switching to 64-bit CPU doesn't change these, the 64-bit NI would perform about as fast as the 32-bit one.

Anyway, perhaps there are other improvements, not just memory related, that have become apparent in practice after switching to 64-bit PS. I would love to hear about such practical experiences.

Thank you,
Vlad

[kimletkeman]

I understand now that you are surveying for potential benefits. The largest images I use are stacks for astrophotography. These can get pretty big, and I'd like to get deeper into this, requiring larger stacks and multi-GB images. So 64bit CS4 is a given for me.

My apologies if I came on too strong ... my frustration with Adobe and the plugin vendors remains very high, however Neat Image is in good company right now, the only shining beacon I see is PTLens, which already has a free 64bit upgrade available. None of the others that I've looked at are shipping 64bit yet. Most seem to be suggesting a delay of about a month.

[thilo]

To make Neat Image work in the 64-bit Photoshop, we will have to develop a new 64-bit version of Neat Image, which will take some more time. Until it is ready, for most practical solution is to keep using the 32-bit Photoshop.

As a very satisfied customer (since 2002) I hope you can offer as soon as possible a solution to use NeatImage in the x64 version.

With the best regards
Thilo

[NITeam]

Yes, of course. We are working on that too, among several other things that we want to improve in Neat Image.

Kind regards,
Vlad

[Noise_remover]

I have 8GB RAM. 64bit Photoshop will use it all instead of stopping at 3GB. That means faster everything. 64bit also moves more data at one time, resulting in significant speed improvements all over the place because of the increased bandwidth. I must say that these improvements were obvious the minute I started using it.

EXACTLY the same here. 8gb of RAM and now seeing the full benefit of it. I use Bridge as my main photo organising app, even though it's been a bit flaky and slow in CS3. I have a lot of actions set up that I run from Bridge and CS4 64bit is just sooooo much faster than CS3 32bit - which is very useful as I can often batch 1000 shots at a go after a longer shoot. I still have the actions set up in CS3 and will use that for shots that require noise reduction. However, I really hope you finish the 64bit version of NI soon. It's going to be a pain flicking between the two versions just for one plug-in. One version, one mindset, one way of working. Flipping out to an older 32bit version occasionally just doesn't fit that.

[M. Rickard]

Thanks for having a forum like this. I too have been a user of Neat Image for several years and just ordered a Vista 64 bit system just to use photoshop. I use plugins such as from Nik and Neat Image, and just wanted to provide another voice in getting Neat Image updated to the 64 bit system. It would be a real pain not to have them updated and have to switch between 32 bit and 64 bit just to use the plugins.

Thanks again for all your hardwork.
Mike

[NITeam]

Thank you for your voting and support!

Kind regards,
Vlad